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I'm now all done with Bruce Lee...


shukocarl1441996347

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shukocarl1441996347

I've finally started to cut my ties with following Bruce Lee after 48 (!) years of being a fan. I just sold my Blu Ray set on eBay and will be starting to list my collection over the coming days 

(Way of the Dragon related stuff and really old collectibles). I've felt this way since the Bob Baker letters were published and it's time to go. This is tough for me but it's what I feel.

Edited by shukocarl1441996347
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Those letters are controversial in that they reveal more about Bruce's drug habits. Some BL fans out there that look up Bruce thanks to his image and overall legacy are new to this so I can understand the shock. But this fact is something that has been known for years so the letters are nothing surprising. Bruce was doing drugs ever since he was introduced to them by Steve McQueen, and stayed that way up until his death.

Edited by DiP
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CharlieParker

So he liked to dabble in his free time, what's the problem?

 

Would be my first response - but then I remembered the thousand dollar drug deals he was supposed to be commandeering via the post from his office. A kind of proto "dark web" - he wasn't just a major dealer but also a visionary, I mean he saw that coming in 1972?

Personally, I've always appreciated anything and everything in moderation and, frankly speaking, what he chose to ingest is his business. I certainly don't think any less of him. His words still carry the same weight. He may have been a bit of a fiend but he was genuine with his beliefs and his philosophy. Strange as it may seem, in the more drugs tolerant world we live in now - I'd almost bet that those letters do more to raise his image than defame it. Opinions have changed a lot over the years. Back in the 70s, smoking a joint was the same as sticking a needle in your arm for most people.

It's a safe bet it would have destroyed his career if it had come out then - which opens up a whole new conspiracy theory - "They" suspected/knew he was going to eventually get caught smuggling drugs and killed him to profit from his death (and still squeaky clean image)

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shukocarl1441996347
1 hour ago, CharlieParker said:

So he liked to dabble in his free time, what's the problem?

 

Would be my first response - but then I remembered the thousand dollar drug deals he was supposed to be commandeering via the post from his office. A kind of proto "dark web" - he wasn't just a major dealer but also a visionary, I mean he saw that coming in 1972?

Personally, I've always appreciated anything and everything in moderation and, frankly speaking, what he chose to ingest is his business. I certainly don't think any less of him. His words still carry the same weight. He may have been a bit of a fiend but he was genuine with his beliefs and his philosophy. Strange as it may seem, in the more drugs tolerant world we live in now - I'd almost bet that those letters do more to raise his image than defame it. Opinions have changed a lot over the years. Back in the 70s, smoking a joint was the same as sticking a needle in your arm for most people.

It's a safe bet it would have destroyed his career if it had come out then - which opens up a whole new conspiracy theory - "They" suspected/knew he was going to eventually get caught smuggling drugs and killed him to profit from his death (and still squeaky clean image)

He turned out to be a hypocritical cunt in my eyes. Philosophy...more like Christmas Cracker jokes...a load of bollocks. He did leave behind a good martial art (his- that is-not Inosanto's) and some decent films and that's it. Stoners will rejoice probably.

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I had no idea he was a drug dealer, if that what this is about. Pretty shocking really considering it literally destroys hundreds if not thousands of lives directly and indirectly in any random city worldwide.

Drugs are far less innocent than they are portrayed. Just look at what happened in that Cree village in Canada. In Belgium and Holland gunfire and grenade attacks linked to drug deals gone wrong are also rampant.

 

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Cognoscente
42 minutes ago, WangYu said:

I had no idea he was a drug dealer, if that what this is about.

Shih Kien did two interviews where he quoted Bruce as telling him that he only regarded films as a side business. I guess drug dealing explains why Bruce had no problems with being generous to people who challenged him or stuntmen who wanted loans.

 

 

 

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I absolutely hate drugs of any kind and I'm sure that there is a special place in Hell for drug dealers. But like I said before, I'm not going to stop enjoying someone's work because I don't like what they are doing or who they are(Unless I find out they have been touching kids or some evil shit like that. There is just no ignoring something like that). I'm a fan of their characters or the persona they put on in public, not the actual person. I find it a lot easier to be that way than to risk getting hurt like you seem to be @shukocarl1441996347

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shukocarl1441996347
1 hour ago, DarthKato said:

I absolutely hate drugs of any kind and I'm sure that there is a special place in Hell for drug dealers. But like I said before, I'm not going to stop enjoying someone's work because I don't like what they are doing or who they are(Unless I find out they have been touching kids or some evil shit like that. There is just no ignoring something like that). I'm a fan of their characters or the persona they put on in public, not the actual person. I find it a lot easier to be that way than to risk getting hurt like you seem to be @shukocarl1441996347

Look, 48 yrs is a long time to have faith in someone who turned out to be drug dealing fraud. His ex wife is even worse promoting one of the biggest con jobs ever. I've followed Wang Yu all this time too. He was a bad'un at times but he never tried to hide that. If you're up front with things people can make a rational choice to like/dislike you.

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starschwar

I haven't read the letters - where is it stated that Bruce was selling?  I was under the impression that he had a habit he was unable to break, not that he was profiting on the addictions of others.

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This is stupid...so stop following a guy because he is flawed?  I hate to tell you that your neighbors have dirty secrets, your local cops do, sports heros, almost every politician from all sides...etc etc...you probably do too if your honest. Drugs were huge in the 70s...like candy...he got hooked big deal.  You might as well cut a good chunk of the human population out of your life while your at it.  People are very flawed. Its not like he was hanging out at the local elementary school dealing. Some of you sound very naive about the world. 

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Cognoscente
1 hour ago, starschwar said:

I haven't read the letters - where is it stated that Bruce was selling?  I was under the impression that he had a habit he was unable to break, not that he was profiting on the addictions of others.


Exhibit A ---> Thursday, March 29, 1973 - Linda writes: "Dear Bob. Received your four letters. Bruce is in the midst of drifting - working very hard. Well, forget about your making some money out of the last orders. I’ve bought a gram measurer and enclosed you will find the $500 for the amount of C you quote that Bruce can get. I’ll measure it, but the quality (that goes without saying) plus the quantity Bruce himself will have to judge. I hope you will send him the mostest along with the one oz. of H. oil and/or whatever. Hello to Bev. Bruce also says hello."

Exhibit B ---> April 1973 - Bruce wrote: "Bob, been resting and reading your book that you’ve sent. By now you should have received my money order. Though I feel that it might be a slight delay because of your friend’s situation, I hope you will send me the “quality” stuff you said you will send (“it has never been from the street”). In the meantime, I’m getting a “quality” spoon and a Quadrabeam scale. Do send it “air-mail” like yesterday (HA! HA!). Take good care, my friend. Bruce."

 

10 minutes ago, Scottfu said:

This is stupid...so stop following a guy because he is flawed?  I hate to tell you that your neighbors have dirty secrets, your local cops do, sports heros, almost every politician from all sides...etc etc...you probably do too if your honest. Drugs were huge in the 70s...like candy...he got hooked big deal.

I'm reminded of the dynamic between HK's police, Triads and martial arts community. They intersected with each other in different ways during Bruce's final HK years. You get a cop like Chan Wai-Man who becomes a Triad and a martial arts actor. You get a Karate instructor for the police like Larry Lee who becomes a martial arts actor. You get stuntmen who become Triads or vice-versa. The head of the martial arts association in HK was even a police chief.

Bruce found himself in an incredibly messy situation that became messier when he antagonised people, and messiest when he died!

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starschwar

@Cognoscente - thank you.  Disappointing if true, but there's still too much context missing for me to have a complete opinion on the matter.  The nature of what was being sold to whom, for which purpose, the Triad situation - lots of variables that couldn't possibly all be in these letters.  I doubt we'll ever have the full story. 

I forget - were these letters all authenticated by handwriting experts?  I remember there was a picture of one on Jeet Kune Do stationary in a thread awhile back and I just find it too cartoonishly incriminating/scandalous to be real.  Maybe it's just my optimism or skepticism, but a part of me still isn't ready to accept this as being (entirely) true, especially considering how long after the fact these documents have come to light. 

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PandaPawPaw

Now I get why he was able to lift the rickshaw in Fist of Fury. He was high as a kite. :P

He should of gone to Mr Han Man for the good stuff.

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CharlieParker

Tobacco kills 1 in every 2 smokers.

Alcohol destroys far, far, far, more lives than any illegal drug. 

Bruce selling and taking cocaine is nothing compared to the damage either of those two 'drugs' do.

So what now? Do we disassociate ourselves from everyone who ever drank or smoked?

It's all about perspective and looking at the bigger picture - Bruce's alleged crimes aren't as bad as you think - unless you're someone who thinks the 'war on drugs' has been a roaring success over the last 30 years.

 

 

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tomgray2404

Shukocarl, just remember that, unlike Bruce Lee, you have the benefit of half a century of knowledge on drugs and the damage they cause.

This is the part people ignore.

In the early 1970s, Lee would have known drugs were illegal and that taking too much of them would be dangerous. That's it. He wouldn't have known a thing about drug cartels and the links to human trafficking and mass murder.

Despite being a great martial artist and an actor, he was extremely naive about a lot of things and simply got sucked into a celebrity lifestyle.

It's demonstrable that he made an arse of it, but judging the guy through the prism of 2022 thought is a touch unfair. He did a TON more good than bad. 

I hope you change your mind.

 

 

 

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Cognoscente
2 hours ago, starschwar said:

@Cognoscente - thank you.  Disappointing if true, but there's still too much context missing for me to have a complete opinion on the matter.  The nature of what was being sold to whom, for which purpose, the Triad situation - lots of variables that couldn't possibly all be in these letters.  I doubt we'll ever have the full story.

One of the reasons why Bruce turned to drug dealing was because Raymond Chow wasn't exactly generous with money. In his final months, Bruce was becoming increasingly aggravated about not receiving his fair share of income in his company Concord. Besides the issue of the box office revenue from The Way of the Dragon, he wasn't exactly given a respectable salary for Enter the Dragon. I get the impression that he was thinking about providing for his children when he became a drug dealer.

Another thing that we have to bear in mind is that Bruce didn't just communicate with Baker via writing; he was bound to have called him too like he did with other people who he liked to write to e.g. Jhoon Rhee.

I often wonder if Bruce was open to Unicorn Chan about his dark lifestyle. Unicorn had some dodgy connections - he was a friend of Chan Wai-Man, and had done several films with gangster Alan Tang. Another actor friend of Bruce's, Wu Fung, was friends with a gangster - Patrick Tse. We will never know specifically who were Bruce's rivals or associates when it came to dealing.

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CharlieParker

Is there a statute of limitations for conspiracy to import drugs? I do wonder because, if the letters were proved to be real, then Linda Lee would (in theory) possibly face the death penalty if she ever sets foot in HK/PR China. 

(Okay, there's that little detail of HK being under UK law at the time, and the fact that the letters alone don't prove guilt)

Edited by CharlieParker
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ShawAngela
57 minutes ago, Cognoscente said:

One of the reasons why Bruce turned to drug dealing was because Raymond Chow wasn't exactly generous with money. In his final months, Bruce was becoming increasingly aggravated about not receiving his fair share of income in his company Concord. Besides the issue of the box office revenue from The Way of the Dragon, he wasn't exactly given a respectable salary for Enter the Dragon. I get the impression that he was thinking about providing for his children when he became a drug dealer.

Another thing that we have to bear in mind is that Bruce didn't just communicate with Baker via writing; he was bound to have called him too like he did with other people who he liked to write to e.g. Jhoon Rhee.

I often wonder if Bruce was open to Unicorn Chan about his dark lifestyle. Unicorn had some dodgy connections - he was a friend of Chan Wai-Man, and had done several films with gangster Alan Tang. Another actor friend of Bruce's, Wu Fung, was friends with a gangster - Patrick Tse. We will never know specifically who were Bruce's rivals or associates when it came to dealing.

What ? Alan Tang and Patrick Tse Yin were triads members too ?

Well... I think we must take all these informations about our favorite actors with philosophy. They had their hidden life exactly like many common people, and it doesn't take out their great skills and talents as actors.

I myself was very disappointed when I learnt that Ting Pei was Bruce's mistress, or that Adam Cheng left Lydia Shum whom he had lived with for many years eight months after their daughter was born, but it's their life, and we can't judge because we don' t live with them and don' t know what their life looks like.

A long while ago, I remember to have post here an internet article related to an actress who commit suicide after having been Lo Lieh's mistress, and the way he mistreated her was also disappointing to learn, but he is still a good actor in people' s mind.

Even if I'm disappointed by what I now know about Bruce Lee, Lo Lieh, Adam Cheng, Liu Yung, Tse Yin, Chen Hui Min, Wang Yu and others, they still will be among my favorite actors and I'll keep their movies or pictures for still a long while... Unless I'm in a real big need of money and I have to sell a part of my collections to go on living..

 

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Cognoscente
32 minutes ago, CharlieParker said:

Is there a statute of limitations for conspiracy to import drugs?

Nope.

Here is an insight into the Lee couple's circumstances..

1973 Misuse of Drugs Act (MDA):

Established on 19th April, 1973.
Laid before Parliament: 7th May.
Coming into effect: 1st July.

It introduced a classification system for controlled drugs: A, B and C.
It created the new offence of possession with intent to supply a controlled drug; • Increased the penalties for trafficking offences (e.g. production, supply and importation and exportation).
 

1 minute ago, ShawAngela said:

What ? Alan Tang and Patrick Tse Yin were triads members too ?

Well... I think we must take all these informations about our favorite actors with philosophy. They had their hidden life exactly like many common people, and it doesn't take out their great skills and talents as actors.

I myself was very disappointed when I learnt that Ting Pei was Bruce's mistress, or that Adam Cheng left Lydia Shum whom he had lived with for many years eight months after their daughter was born, but it's their life, and we can't judge because we don' t live with them and don' t know what their life looks like.

Alan and Patrick were members of the HK version of the Rat Pack - the Silver Rats.

Funny how you should bring up Ting Pei and Lydia Shum because I just happened to come across an image of them from a late January 1975 issue of a HK magazine.

7新知#31(1975年1月31日.jpg

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CharlieParker

So, taking this to a whole new level of conspiracy theories - 

Raymond Chow gets wind of the introduction of the misuse of drugs act that's going to be passed into law in 1973. Before then it was the wild west and Bruce had taken full advantage of his location and his contacts. Chow looks at the penalties - he knows it could destroy Bruce's star status and the money it generates.

And he is also fully aware that Bruce now has his sights on being the "the big boss" of the golden triangle in Asia. Aside from the risks involved, the wealth this could potentially bring Bruce Lee  will destroy Chow's dreams for Golden Harvest film studio. Bruce has already set up Concorde at this point - perhaps in-part from the ill-gotten gains of his drug dealing?

Chow sees only one way out. He must silence the golden goose.

 

 

 

 

Edited by CharlieParker
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Cognoscente
17 minutes ago, CharlieParker said:

So, taking this to a whole new level of conspiracy theories - 

Raymond Chow gets wind of the introduction of the misuse of drugs act that's going to be passed into law in 1973. Before then it was the wild west and Bruce had taken full advantage of his location

Speaking of Wild West, here is an insight into Bruce's post-GH plan: https://popcultmaster.com/2022/09/01/all-roads-lead-to-rome/

Anyway, Raymond Chow had a connection to the police in the form of voice actor Ted Thomas. From Raymond’s perspective, Ted could be used as a spy since he was moonlighting as a dubbing artist for Golden Harvest and Shaw Brothers. On the night that Bruce died, Ted was having dinner with the commissioner of the HK police!
 

17 minutes ago, CharlieParker said:

And he is also fully aware that Bruce now has his sights on being the "the big boss" of the golden triangle in Asia. Aside from the risks involved, the wealth this could potentially bring Bruce Lee will destroy Chow's dreams for Golden Harvest film studio. Bruce has already set up Concorde at this point - perhaps in-part from the ill-gotten gains of his drug dealing?

Chow sees only one way out. He must silence the golden goose.

Chow never really allowed his partners to be bigger than him. According to Wikipedia: "1980 saw Raymond Chow pull one of Hung's films from local cinemas after just two weeks. Hung responded by starting his own production company, Bo Ho Film Company Ltd, allowing him to have greater control to produce Hong Kong films. While Bo Ho produced, Golden Harvest still operated as distributors."

Bo Ho could have been bigger than Golden Harvest had Eastern Condors been given a widespread release in the West, especially with an Oscar winner amongst the cast!

Strangely, it was only when Jackie began making Police Story that he had the confidence to start his own company: Golden Way.

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